January 9, 2009
Herm Should be Fired, But He Deserved a Lot Better in Kansas City
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26 Comments on "Herm Should be Fired, But He Deserved a Lot Better in Kansas City"
#1
Posted by The Hammer, January 9, 2009 8:41 PM
Carl Peterson's major sin as a general manager was in hiring Herm Edwards. Carl Peterson did not put Herm Edwards in an unwinnable situation, Herm Edwards did. How many games did the Chiefs utilize the run, run, pass, punt offense even after Mike Solari left, and Chan Gailey took over as OC? Herm Edwards philosophy on both offense and defense failed miserably. The defensive philosophy has yet to be thrown in the trash and changed to something workable (i.e. winning). This is the worst defense ever fielded by the Kansas City Chiefs. They finished the season with an NFL record for the least sacks in a sixteen game season finishing with ten. Herm has consistently attempted to play not to lose rather than playing to win the game. A head coach must have a "killer instinct" not a keep it close and slug it out at the end instinct. Herms sins are so great against this organization and its wonderful traditions that for him to walk away from the miserable job he has done and be able to collect the money for the year he has remaining on his contract is not only fair to him, it is a slap in the face to the legions of fans who have suffered through three years of ineptitude which knows no bounds.
#2
Posted by hrivera, January 9, 2009 9:17 PM
Good article and I completely agree.... although I think I'm still the only Chiefs fan who thinks that with another year Herm would have proved everyone wrong... our incredibly young team would have a year under its belt and with a new draft, free agent signings and a new defensive coordinator we would be an up and coming team... but those are just my thoughts... Good luck Herm! not everyone hated you!
#3
Posted by MaverickII, January 9, 2009 9:42 PM
I do agree that Herm blew up the team, I dont see that he has really began to rebuild it. I also aggree that he cant manage the clock or the game, he cant make an adjustment to anything either. I tried to give him the benifit of the doubt his first 2 years, but I dont see how anyone can defend him any longer. Some of those close games were lost in my opinion by the head coach during the game, both directly and indirectly.
#5
Posted by Brad, January 10, 2009 12:29 AM
Herm is a great position coach.The game itself as a head coach is too big for him. He is the culprit for several shortcomings. herm pleaded and pleaded to simply hand the team over to a young, unproven, fragile QB rather than open up any competition and furthermore by having no back up plan...literally
#7
Posted by UCrawford, January 10, 2009 2:28 AM
Sorry, but I'm not buying that he's a victim of circumstance. Herm Edwards had a losing record during his "good" years in New York and he had a losing record here. Matter of fact, if you look at a list of all-time NFL coaches with 50 decisions, Herm's record in Kansas City was the 8th worst...ever. You don't lose over 2/3 of your games by being a simple victim of circumstance...you lose that many by being absolutely incompetent at your job. If you look at his win percentage for his entire career, his closest comparables are guys like Alex Webster, Rick Kotite and Jim Hanifan...none of whom we'd want running our team.
And I'll say this now...I stood up for Herm his first two years here. I was willing to give the guy a chance this season. Right up until he gave the starting QB job to Brodie Croyle without even considering an open competition for it (which was especially ridiculous considering a) Croyle's injury history and b) that Damon Huard was a better QB). At that point I knew that Herm was simply a terrible head coach who'd somehow managed to squeeze a seven year head coaching career out of two abysmally-run organizations (the Jets and the Chiefs) that had no clue what to look for in a field general.
The guy may end up being a good position coach somewhere (he seems to have a genuine eye for scouting DB talent and getting something out of it) but as a head coach he's a sick joke...one of the worst of all time.
#8
Posted by jay, January 10, 2009 3:13 AM
I agree, thanks for writing this. I think Herm deserves another year, it seems he was a pass rush away from 6-10 or even 8-8.
#9
Posted by Jon Yoon, January 10, 2009 5:10 AM
UCrawford, I don't think it's accurate to say Herm had a losing record to imply that he was a loser in New York. The fact is, he was a "good enough" coach there. His losses largely came as a result of losing his starting quarterback.
Now, as for the QB situation, Herm screwed up by committing to Croyle in 2008. But the Huard example is one that highlights just what was going on in the organization. Think about it... Herm said in 2007 that he wanted Brodie to be the guy. What do we know happened since then? Damon Huard got a 3-yr, $7.5M contract, which is NOT a contract you pay to someone to sit on the bench. And we later learned that Peterson in almost every way resisted the rebuild. It seems to add up that Herm got a lot of pressure from up-top to start Huard because Huard was a guy who could win more games now.
Herm's made his share of mistakes. Committing to Croyle was a big one. But when you talk about crappy coaches, how come you don't bring up crappy GMs? How many coaches did Matt Millen have to fire in Detroit before we realized he was the problem? So often bad GMs want to blame decent coaches for their own shortcomings. Does Herm deserves blame for the 2-14 record? Of course. But if you read my articles on Peterson (linked in the write-up), it's very difficult to argue against the idea that Peterson stacked the cards against whatever coach decided to come to KC in 2006.
#10
Posted by larry, January 10, 2009 5:53 AM
So, does anyone really believe that Herm Edwards losing all his quarterbacks at two different times with two different teams is simply coincidence? I don't think so. The injuries to his players in the most important offensive position can be attributed, at least to some degree, to a completely predictable offensive style that puts unrealistic pressures on even exceptional offensive linemen and unacceptable risks to quarterbacks. 3rd and 12-10-11-09, on a regular basis? Why not just dress the QB as a pinata and hand out baseball bats to defensive linemen. Given enough chances, and even the Chiefs got to the QB nine times this season, any decent defense is going to get a good lick in on the offensive centerpiece. Give them too many chances, and the guy that's supposed to lead on to victory winds up on the sidelines. It's simple probability. I think it compelling that TT is still in one piece since Gailey installed the spread. Herm's true style is bland, so bland it's dangerous. He record screams failure, he deserves to be fired.
#11
Posted by UCrawford, January 10, 2009 6:50 AM
Jon,
Every single coach who's got a losing record in the history of the NFL could probably point to something on his team to excuse himself from blame for the losses (rebuilding, injuries, bad ownership) and most of the time their excuses would be just as valid as Herm's. And it doesn't really matter, because in the end a head coach's job is to get the most out of his team and put wins on the board. Over three years with the Chiefs Herm's been able to squeeze wins out of of his team LESS than a third of the time. Even the worst coaches in the NFL (or baseball, or any other sport) are generally able to win at least a third of their games. Over an eight year career he's never won more than 10 games in a season, never been to an AFC Championship (much less a Super Bowl) and never won his division outright (despite an often weak AFC East). He's had a losing record in both of his stops. His games are rife with questionable calls and game management decisions, he often seems to be at a loss for developing a gameplan to cater to his players' strengths and his teams consistently get outcoached in the second half of games once the other team makes their halftime adjustments.
He didn't lose 14 games this year because the Chiefs were rebuilding. He lost 14 games this year because he's one of the worst football coaches in the league at managing a game and because he rarely (if ever) accepts personal responsibility for the performance of his team. You might think Herm deserves better, but based on the results his team produced on the field for the last two years all Herm deserves is to get fired. And I'd say the same of any coach who had his team effectively eliminated from the playoff hunt by midseason. There was no justification for this team to have gone 2-14 this year, regardless of whether or not they decided to go with a youth movement. And if the head coach thinks that going 2-14 in his third year on the job isn't grounds to be fired, then he's got no business coaching in the NFL at all because the man's too clueless and irresponsible to be put in charge of developing young players.
#12
Posted by UCrawford, January 10, 2009 6:57 AM
As for crappy GMs, if you popped into our threads on Arrowhead Pride you'd have noticed that I was calling for Peterson's head for quite awhile for what he's done with this team. The man should never have been retained long enough to hire Herm Edwards in the first place...he should have been let go after Cunningham flopped, or when Dick Vermeil retired (at the latest). Doesn't let Herm off the hook for consistently getting outcoached in the second half this year though. The talent level on this team wasn't good enough to go .500 or better, but it also wasn't bad enough to go 2-14.
"How many coaches did Matt Millen have to fire in Detroit before we realized he was the problem?"
I could have told you Matt Millen was the problem after he spent a 4th round pick on QB Mike McMahon (who completed less than half of his passes for his college career at Rutgers). Or when he selected four WRs in the first round (including one, Mike Williams, who had been out of football for a year). His horrible drafting was sufficient indictment there...he should have been fired three or four years ago.
#13
Posted by Yoon sucks, January 10, 2009 8:32 AM
9-7. 4-12. 2-14. And all I hear is excuses. Unreal. He even said it- let his record speak for itself.
You are what your record says you are.
-Bill Parcells
#14
Posted by Jon Yoon, January 10, 2009 9:22 AM
larry, Herm's ineptitude on offense is inexcusable. But, here's the deal... we knew Herm wasn't good on offense, and yet Peterson still thought it was okay to stick him with an inexperienced offensive coordinator. A guy like Gailey should have been hired from the start--an experienced guy who would put Herm in his place.
I don't know how much input Herm had into the coordinators he got. But that plays a big part, as the Chiefs had arguably two of the worst X's and O's coordinators in the game in Gun and Solari.
#15
Posted by Jon Yoon, January 10, 2009 9:32 AM
UCrawford, agree to disagree. My argument to you is that Carl Peterson built a crappy 5-6 win team and Herm Edwards turned that 5-6 win team into a 2-win team. That's just my opinion.
And the reason the Chiefs are a 5-6 win team regardless of the coach is that Peterson wrecked the team and then resisted the rebuild in 2007 when it should have happened.
It doesn't excuse the close games Herm should have won and those close games are one reason why Herm should probably be fired. But I can't help but wonder what would have happened in a Carl Peterson-less world in which the team was blown up in 2007 as Herm demanded it be.
#16
Posted by UCrawford, January 10, 2009 2:30 PM
Jon,
"My argument to you is that Carl Peterson built a crappy 5-6 win team and Herm Edwards turned that 5-6 win team into a 2-win team. That's just my opinion"
Then we're not actually disagreeing about the talent level on the team...I never thought this was a .500 team, I figured it was a 5-6 win team as well. But I don't understand your logic with how Herm doesn't "deserve" to get fired when he took a team that you believe is capable of winning 5-6 games and then won 2 with it. That would seem to support my arguments that he's a terrible football coach who can't effectively utilize the talent he's given.
You know, when I'm calling for Herm's firing it's not because I believe he's a horrible person and I want bad things to happen to him in life (other than getting fired from this job, that is)...he might be the nicest guy on Earth for all I know but he's out of his depth as a head coach (victim, I suspect, of the Peter Principle). A football coach is only as good as his wins and losses, and Herm's been on the wrong side of that ledger for a very long time. He's had an eight year career as a head coach (a pretty large sample size), he's never achieved much with it (one division title and only two playoff wins), and most of the coaches who were comparable to him in wins and losses have popped up on "worst coach" lists for the franchises they worked for. That's just straight-out failure, and as you're generally a stat guy I'm kind of surprised that you're bucking that to defend Herm.
#17
Posted by vajazz24, January 10, 2009 3:26 PM
I have been saying that all season. The man has his faults, but we all do. Look we are rebuilding and has a coach who has brought some nice young talent here. Lets give him a chance to make it work. Herm's biggest mistake was Brodie Croyle. Which anyone living in the southeastern region of the U.S. knew couldn't make it in the NFL. Talent wise or health wise. Need to get rid of the special teams coach, the defensive line coach, and Dick Curling my stomach. This is year two of his rebuilding plan lets let it play out another year at least. I'm quite sure Chiefs nation has read reports of other personel men that have spoke highly of the Chiefs situation and I feel Herm Edwards deserves a lot of credit for that. He has also put Chiefs nation ahead of his job security and you are not going to find many coaches like that. We will benefit greatly from this. He deserves more time.
#18
Posted by Yoon sucks, January 10, 2009 4:21 PM
Don't worry Yoon, it seems as if the Chiefs aren't getting Pioli now cause Hunt wants your boy Herm. On the bright sidene t years 0-16 or 1-15 season should finally delouse us of all Herm scum. Probably not though. I can't wait to see the excuses next year. Looking forward to that just about as much as Dick Curl coaching the number 3 overall draft pick. Sucks to be a Chiefs fan right now.
#19
Posted by TXChiefan, January 10, 2009 5:51 PM
I really detest the "Let the record speak for itself" crap. So what? We went 2- 14 and looked like crap this year. We were the worst in Chiefs history this year. Again, I ask what is the "So What?" to it all?
There are a few answers, and as the head coach Herm Edwards is completely responsible.
1. The team needed a significant shake up, and he is the one who laid his reputation and neck on the line to do it. Herm showed guts.
2. The team needed to build a solid foundation of youth and develop players for the future. Herm showed experienced leadership.
3. The team needed new coaching and direction to become competitive with the youth and inexperienced team. Herm showed courage in allowing Chan to be inovative and move away from Herm's "comfort zone".
I know there are more, and I know there are counter-arguments, but good Lord, it is easier to knock people down when they don't meet our expectations, than to see the positive and allow others to grow and improve after learning from mistakes. I didn't realize that Chiefs fans are all of a sudden zero tolerance fans. We knew this season would be tough and knew we would go through it, but now everyone is calling for Herms head, even though he is the only coach we've had in many years, with the guts, courage, fortitude, and damn good personality to do what it takes to build a Super Bowl caliber team from the foundation, up.
Herm has weaknesses as we all do. He has proven that he is working on his weaknesses by allowing his coaches to use their strenghts. He will only get better as a coach as well. I wish him the best. I do hope it is as the Chiefs head coach for one more year, to prove himself one way or the other.
#20
Posted by Jon Yoon, January 10, 2009 6:50 PM
"Yoon Sucks" (Ha!) and UCrawford. Just to clarify, I think Herm should be fired because I'm not convinced he has proven enough as a gameday coach in both his career with the Jets and KC to prove he can take a team over the top.
But in terms of "deserving better", I say that because a new head coach should be allowed to prove how well he can coach with a supportive front office that is willing to provide the coach with the resources he wants and needs. Herm Edwards didn't have that. Herm wanted the rebuild and was right, Carl Peterson forced Herm to reload and win now and was completely wrong.
So who's to say that if Peterson actually listened to Herm, that this team couldn't have been 5 steps further along in the rebuild right now? Unfortunately, now we'll never know.
But yes, with a new GM coming in, you have to hire a GM and the decision to keep/fire Herm should NOT be a sticking point. Any GM like Pioli should have 100% the right to keep/fire Herm.
#21
Posted by Yoon sucks, January 10, 2009 9:06 PM
Look people, Herm has coached a lot of games. He has a big enough sample size that flukes and luck are statistically eliminated. He is a losing NFL coach, plain and simple. I get sick of the thought of him being the HC next year but after another 1-3 win season will permanently remove the stain of Herm. Looks like he may cost us a GM too. More and more I think Clark is a totally inept owner. This is truly a dark time to be a KC fan.
#22
Posted by Yoon sucks, January 10, 2009 9:29 PM
What makes anyone think anything is being rebuilt? Herm tore down the team- which needed it. But is anything being rebuilt? What about this year gives anyone hope? The 1-9 QB? The #5 pick who is a colossal bust? How bout that 32nd ranked "defense"? Next years draft pick? Oh yeah so we take stafford or Bradford and then what? They get coached by dick freaking curl! Or we reach for a defensive player? Or take a right tackle?
Bottomline the defense is in shamble and the only position on offense with any hope is LT. Thanks Herm and Carl. But hey by all means let's give Herm another year to "rebuild".
#23
Posted by Larry Mondelo, January 10, 2009 10:13 PM
Herm failed...what a monumental mistake hiring him. I will bet upon his firing that he is NEVER a head coach again.
#24
Posted by Jon Yoon, January 11, 2009 1:26 AM
I disagree, "Yoon sucks." This team entered the season with 18 colossal holes on the team, including LT, C, RG, RT, FB, #2 WR, #3 WR, QB, RDE, DT#1, DT#2, CB#1, CB#2, Nickel Corner, OLB#1, MLB, Kicker, KR/PR. We knocked that list down considerably: LT, FB, #3 WR, CB #1, CB#2, Nickel Corner, KR/PR, those are all key positions that I think we did a decent job of addressing. We also opened up an insane amount of cap space by cutting veterans.
So what we have now is a very young roster with some promising players like Branden Albert and Brandon Flowers in key positions, a ton of cap space to work with, and an outstanding draft position. While it may not seem like rebuilding, I guarantee that this is what makes KC such a desirable landing spot for the GM position. Keep in mind also that guys like Dorsey, Tank, and Turk are still extremely young and inexperienced, and still have room to continue to improve. A rebuild is supposed to be difficult. The Jets, for example, may have won more games, but do you think they regret the decision to reload with veterans who can help them win now like Favre? I bet they do.
And again, I don't support Herm in 2009 to continue the rebuild, but I recognize that he built a pretty solid foundation for this team. And yes, I agree, there is no reason why a GM should be forced to stick with Herm. A GM should and probably will be allowed to choose Herm Edwards' fate.
#25
Posted by bigdaddyt, January 11, 2009 6:21 AM
I agree with u Jon.
Last year everyone agreed to rebuild including Mr. Hunt. Everyone know that this season was going to be painful. Now that its over everyone wants to fire the coach because we didn't win. I think the Chiefs should let Herm finish what he started. Mr. Hunt said something during his interview in regards to a new GM. He said he wanted the stability that Pittsburg has had. Pittsburg has only had 2 coaches since Chuck Noll. How many coaches have the Chiefs had? Now to put it in perspective, how many has Detroit had?
Give him a chance to finish what he started.
#26
Posted by Yoon sucks, January 11, 2009 8:31 PM
Keep Herm and be prepared for the very real chance of a 0-16 or 1-15 season.
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