Brodie Croyle vs. Tarvaris Jackson
I was going to do another post about offseason story lines, but I think I stimulated some interesting dialogue about why the media is so convinced that Brodie Croyle will fail.
Chris from Arrowhead Pride addressed this point in good detail, as did many of MVN readers in the “comments” section. Let me get one thing straight: I am in no way convinced that Brodie Croyle will be a success. One point I disagree with in Chris’ post and the comments was that Croyle’s upside can be compared to Peyton Manning’s. Realistically, Croyle was a third round pick while Manning was a top 5 lottery pick. I get that Peyton’s upside is considerably higher. However, in fairness, Croyle has been marked with failure when he hasn’t been given any chance to succeed or fail. Just as it may too ambitious to mark him a success without any track record, the same can also said about marking him as a failure.
Rather than compare Croyle to QBs like Peyton Manning, I want to use three more appropriate comparisons: 1) Joe Flacco; 2) Rex Grossman; 3) Tarvaris Jackson. The Flacco comparison is the weakest of the three, but there’s still some merit. Whereas Croyle produced in an ultra-competitive college division, Flacco was drafted in the first round purely off of upside. Arguably, Flacco is a far riskier proposition from a fantasy standpoint than Croyle is. After all, Croyle has proven he can play with the big boys; Flacco has not.
The second comparison is far more I alluded to the Grossman comparison in my previous post. It is just laughable that anyone could be convinced that a player with a few years of failure under his belt could have a higher rating than a QB like Croyle, who has upside but has not been given a chance to fail. Joey Harrington effect anybody?
But by far the most relevant and stinging criticism to Croyle is the double-standard of media-heads making a stink about Brodie Croyle’s poor 2007 performance and not about Tarvaris Jackson’s. When you actually compare the two players side by side, the numbers are remarkably similar. The only distinction is that Tarvaris Jackson can run, whereas Croyle can’t. But haven’t we gotten past the stage where running QBs are no longer seen as a can’t-miss offensive threat? Even Michael Vick, who may well be the most athletic QB of all time, had only lukewarm success as a starting NFL quarterback.
But here is the far more important distinction: Jackson had a supremely better offensive line in front of him. He had arguably the most explosive running back in the NFL to force 8 men in the box on every down. Croyle, on the other hand, had the complete opposite cards: he had the worst offensive line in the league and arguably the worst running game in the NFL (when Kolby Smith was starting). While Croyle easily had the better receivers of the two, he also faced defenses that were paying a lot more attention to the pass than they were to the run. I’m not arguing who has more potential than the other, but if there was ever a red flag to be raised, shouldn’t that be raised over the head of the player who had a great supporting cast and yet still failed to deliver? It’s not like Jackson came from an outstanding pedigree either, unless you become convinced that his experiences at Alabama State adequately prepared him for the NFL.
In other words, Jackson and Croyle at this point in their career have about the same amount of upside, but you’d be hard-pressed to find an article that puts Croyle in anywhere near the same class as Croyle. Hell, even Kellen Clemens gets more credit than Croyle. I don’t know if Croyle will be a success or a failure, but I’m at least going to give him the opportunity to succeed or fail.
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9 Responses to “Brodie Croyle vs. Tarvaris Jackson”
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:33 am
A fair point of view.
July 23rd, 2008 at 7:36 am
“The second comparison is far more I alluded to the Grossman comparison in my previous post.”
and
“hard-pressed to find an article that puts Croyle in anywhere near the same class as Croyle.”
Jon, were you drunk when you wrote this?
Seriously though, I totally agree with your assessment.
Incidentally, with an average of 78 rushing yards per game, the 2007 Chiefs were not “arguably” the worst running game, they were absolutely the worst running game.
July 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 am
Good Comparison! I make the same point here that I gave as a comment yesterday in “Who starts at QB?” Did the media watch ONLY the preseason games that Brodie played in and NOT the regular season games. You don’t have to put on rose colored glasses to observe the fact that Brodie played very well for most of the regular season even with a horrible line, horrible running game and pathetic play calling. It would help for the media to put on some glasses and just sit down and watch the November 07 game at Indy as an example. This kid already has it, but it is almost like the media is trying to psych him out with a failure tag. Media Bias Maybe????
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:23 am
I think this is a fair comparison but I think you dismiss a part of Tarvaris Jackson’s game too easily. Sure, mobility in a quarterback has been overrated in the past but surely if the passing numbers are similar (Tarvaris: 1911 pass yards, 12 interceptions, 260 rush yards in 12 starts; Croyle: 1227 pass yards, 6 int, and 18 rush yards in 6 starts) which they are, the ability to make a play by a means other than passing should be at least considered valuable.
I personally think it’s too early to say how either quarterback will fare in the future but I can’t say I’m too impressed by either. This year should give us a better indication, though I think Tarvaris is lucky to be in the situation he is in while the Chiefs aren’t as solid.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:26 am
Oops, I was too careless when looking over the information and didn’t realize that Croyle passed for more yards in half as many starts. That does indicate to me that he is most likely the better passer of the two but I still maintain that I am not that impressed by either as of yet.
July 23rd, 2008 at 11:29 am
Tarvaris Jackson’s best receiving option was Bobby Wade, who is at BEST a 3rd string slot receiver on a NFL Europe Team. His TE or “safety net” was Visanthe Shiancoe who had 4 dropped TDs in his first year starting. The minnesota running back tandem was superb and the run-blocking skills of the offensive line unmatched which technically IS a good thing, but the fact of the matter remains that the actual people who most severely affect a young quarterbacks performance, his receivers, were trash last year. Bobby Wade statistically was the 52nd best WR in the NFL, NO QB can suceed in that situation regardless of who the running back is, just look at former rookie of the year Vince Young’s production when he was throwin the ball to Tyrone Calico and Justn Gage. Not pretty. Other than maybe Tom Brady, no QB in the league can truly operate effectively without a decent set of receivers to throw to, especially the young guys.
Brodie Croyle’s situation is the exact opposite of Tarvaris Jackson’s. His ’safety net’ is a sure-fire Hall of Fame pro bowl all-world superstar Tight End and his #1 receiver is quickly becoming an elite wideout in this league, but his line and run game are both atrocious.
Neither one of these quarterback’s have been in a decent enough position to be able to fairy asses their skills and/or validity as aa quote unquote ‘quarterback of the future’ for their respective teams. But because neither one of them were first round picks, teams arent necessarily obliged, hoped or expected to ride with em through hell and high water. My hope is that both of their respective teams can put them in the environment they need to succeed and that they both perform at a very high level.
July 23rd, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Jay, I didn’t mean to imply that Croyle has shown more than Jackson or vice-versa. My argument was that it’s pretty ridiculous for the media to rip on Croyle’s performance, when there’s a QB like Jackson who has shown about the same level of performance.
As for who was more disadvantaged, I think you’d have a very hard time winning an argument that Jackson had less resources to work with. Trent Green threw for over 4,000 yards and a 90+ QB rating for several consecutive years because of a spectacular running game and offensive line. While he had Gonzalez to throw to, his other receiving targets were Eddie Kennison and Johnnie Morton. The comparison isn’t perfect, but it’s relevant—pass protection tends to be one of the best predictors of a QB’s success. Hence, Trent Green was an absolute nightmare when he didn’t have pass protection.
Jackson had direction from an offensive-minded coach, and a pretty good one at that. Croyle had direction from two offensive doofuses. Jackson had probably a good 2-3 seconds more to throw the ball than Croyle, which means that he actually had a capability to go through his progressions; Croyle never had time to look past a first option. Jackson had an all-pro RB that was drawing attention from an entire defense, including 8 guys consistently loaded in the box; Croyle had 11 guys paying most of their attention to stopping the pass and playing back in pass defense. So while Jackson had less targets to throw to, he had a good offensive scheme to get them open, he had a lot more time to not only wait for primary targets to open up but also to look at second and third options, and he faced defenses that were paying a lot less attention to him and his receivers. It’s not really an entirely important argument to make, but I think it’s pretty easy to argue that Croyle had a ton less to work with than Jackson did.
July 25th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Two Tickets to the game, 85 dollars
Two Beers about 14 dollars
Two “Offensive Doofuses” priceless.
July 25th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
i’d take jackson over croyle anyday. because when the pocket breaks down (as will alot for the chefs this year) jackson can run the ball and get some yards out of it. unlike croyle who will either get sacked or throw up a booger pass. because he’s gonna get picked
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