April 8, 2008
Vernon Gholston and the Oakland Raiders: Hype or Real Deal?
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Will Gholston in Silver and Black be a terror to Rivers, Cutler, and Croyle?
It is 17 days until draft day, and Thoughts from the Dark Side is continuing the Hype or Real Deal series with Vernon Gholston DE/OLB from Ohio State. So far, you guys have said that Darren McFadden is real by a 2-1 margin and that Chris Long was real by an overwhelming margin. Now, I am interested in hearing your take on Gholston.
Pros: He is fast and explosive and can get to the quarterback. The only sacks allowed by Jake Long were ones to Gholston. He had a monster performance at the combine.
Cons: Is said to be possibly better suited to be a pass rushing OLB in the mold of LT, Derrick Thomas, and Shawne Merriman. His ability against the run is questioned. He has also seen his draft stock soar since his combine performance, leaving many to question whether he is a player or a workout warrior.
Defensive end is a position of need for the Raiders. Gholston could be an intriguing pick because he could allow Ryan to mix in an occasional 3-4 hybrid look. He would bookend with Derrick Burgess giving the Raiders bookend pass rushers who are questionable against the run. Stopping the run has been a major problem in Oakland, so either the Pro Bowl player in Burgess or the rook in Gholston would be relegated to passing downs.
Image details: Buffalo Bills v Oakland Raiders served by picapp.comWould a Derrick Burgess and Vernon Gholston tandem be a holy terror for quarterbacks?
I don't know enough to call whether he would be a good pick, so Raider Nation whats your take? Is Vernon Gholston hype or the real deal?
Discussion
35 Comments on "Vernon Gholston and the Oakland Raiders: Hype or Real Deal?"
#1
Posted by Gholston, Hype or Real Deal? - Oakland Raiders Forum | Message Board - Where the Raider Nation lives, April 8, 2008 2:08 PM
[...] Hype or Real Deal? Thoughts from the Dark Side | MVN - an Oakland Raiders blog ª Blog Archive ª Vernon Gholston and the... __________________ "While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a [...]
#2
Posted by LDizzle, April 8, 2008 2:58 PM
I have heard two really bad things said about Gholston that would scare me away: Inconsistency, and takes plays off. No team needs a guy who only tries some of the time or gives up on plays. That is what busts are made of especially on the Dline.
Prognosis: HYPE
#3
Posted by Dan, April 8, 2008 2:59 PM
I think he is the real deal. People forget Burgess was a converted OLB that has turned into a monster when not injured. Gholston has the speed and strength needed to be an elite DE. He also has the frame to add a few pounds if he needs to. He maybe the new and better "freak".
#4
Posted by Twocents, April 8, 2008 3:02 PM
Gholston would be great. So would McFadden or either Long. But I think the Raiders need to strengthen the DL in the middle. Dorsey is likely to be gone @ #4 so Ellis is my pick. Plug him in and everybody looks better.
#5
Posted by PercEpTivE, April 8, 2008 3:18 PM
I agree with Twocents, I like Gholston, I really like Chris Long but I would take Ellis or Dorsey if they are available. It isn't as sexy but it is more practical.
#6
Posted by raidz, April 8, 2008 3:36 PM
I don't think Ellis would be to great of a pick for us. I think if Glenn Dorsey isn't there, trade down or go with a DE, Long or gholston. If the raiders traded down, though, we might be abled to get Derrick Harvey out of Florida. To me he seems like a great late first rounder, he can stop the run and get to the passer. Just another reason I like the idea of trading down.
#7
Posted by inonewordraider, April 8, 2008 3:48 PM
Gholston will be a sack stud. He is a super athlete like the Freak or Merriman or Julius Peppers. He may become a run stopper and his ceiling is very high. But like most of you I agree we should take Dorsey if available because of our poor run defense, Ellis if Dorsey isn't there. They both played in tough conferences and both were often double teamed and both were able to stop the run AND manage to accumulate sacks. When healthy, Tommy Kelly will be a fine end that has proven to stop the run.
#8
Posted by O, April 8, 2008 3:50 PM
Vernon is the real deal and this would make for a great pass-rush attack with Burgess on one side and Gholston on the other. LDizzle I have seen similar comments about his size and ability as well though from playing as a senior he dramatically improved his size, strength and ability to stay with his tackle. This was shown in the combine in the drills and workouts. He is the real deal…
#9
Posted by OakFoSho, April 8, 2008 4:50 PM
Well,
I share many of the same concerns regarding Gholston, and believe he is overrated at #4. Thus at #4, I believe Gholston is all Hype. I can see the Raiders taking him if they trade down a few picks, but I would prefer otherwise.
Why? Easy! Because the Raiders already have an improving Richardson, and they signed Kalimba. With these two, the Raiders can play to each players strengths and use them in a platoon at RE. I do not believe that Al would have given Kalimba a 2 year deal with guaranteed money just to draft a DE at #4. Also, with the book still out on Richardson, it doesn;t make sense to just give up on him.
Al's Mandate is McFadden!!
OakFoSho
#10
Posted by rada4life, April 8, 2008 4:52 PM
I'm a Raider fan and also a Buckeye fan.Picking Gholston would be a awesome add for the Raiders ,because he has a great work ethic and i have never seen him take plays off(no matter what the so called experts say).I could see him(Gholston)and Jay Rrichardson(in while Burgess rests of course) on each side of the D line competing for the sacks and that's what Kiffen looks for is :Competition!Remember that Gholston is just a junior coming into the draft out of The Ohio State Buckeyes and Tressel has taught him well.Although i do think if Dorsey is available the Raiders would be crazy not to take him,because he shows toughness by playing hurt or with injuries.Chris Long would also be a great add,but i'm not so sure he wants to repeat what his dad did.He seems like he wants to be his own man with a different team.I would love to have him,just not sure he wants to be exactly like his dad.D Mac would create some major compitition in an already deep and talented backfield,but he could be used for a number of different things.It could also create controversy with the other backs,but this is America and if you can't get the job done,someone else will.Whoever the Raiders pick,i'm sure it won't be a bad one with this years draft. Rada4life
#11
Posted by Thoughts from the Dark Side: Vernon Gholston and the Oakland Raiders: Hype or Real Deal? | The Raide, April 8, 2008 5:30 PM
[...] Read more. Posted in Blog, Oakland Raiders | [...]
#12
Posted by pat, April 8, 2008 6:02 PM
This gives the Raiders a chance to mix up the defense and to avoid double teams on Derrick Burgess. Gholston could also do what Justin Tuck did for the Giants match him up against a guard and Gholston will fly by him. And OakfoSho says why would Al pay Kalimba Edwards for 2 years with guranteed money well then i prsent to you this argument why would he resign Justin Fargas and give him lik 4 or 5 million in guranteed money? I rest my case
#13
Posted by Interesting Read...pay attention to "pros" - Oakland Raiders Forum | Message Board - Where, April 8, 2008 6:15 PM
[...] Interesting Read...pay attention to "pros" Thoughts from the Dark Side | MVN - an Oakland Raiders blog ª Blog Archive ª Vernon Gholston and the... [...]
#14
Posted by RaiderMac, April 8, 2008 6:41 PM
Gholston is EXACTLY what we need. Burgess/Edwards both just have two yrs left on their current contracts and AGE is not on their side. Gholston is the future of our pass rush at RDE.
With Gholston at RDE & Richardson at LDE, we would have our pass rusher/base end, not to mention former buckeye teammates in college.
#15
Posted by Mr.Murder, April 8, 2008 9:13 PM
Delawrence Grant 2.0
Stay the f away!
Tweener. Too slow to play LB, too small to play end. You can't play two undersized ends at the same time unless it's a Dungy scheme where everyone max covers and runs to the ball. Gholston isn't fast enough to be a Dungy end anyways.
Jake Long is hella overrated too, angle blocker. All the Wisc Big Ten OL are angle blockers, they all go rd 3-4 and most of them end up playing G. Long's hands are pretty weak, get inside of them and he's toast. He wears oversized pads and DE in the NFL would have a field day tugging that gear off balance and speeding past him. Jake Long almost never dominates a man nose up, they have to be inside or outside of him where he can block a shoulder to get movement, no thanks.
Big ten busts, stay away!
#16
Posted by Raider Mike, April 8, 2008 10:50 PM
First round picks are always a risk because of the money committed. Remember D. Russel, McGlockton, Dudley, Patrick Bates, Todd Marinovich, Derrick Gibson, Tyler Brayton in no special order. All of these players had high potential, but let us down in various ways.
With these players in mind, who would be the least likely to be a letdown. I believe C Long would fit the bill. After that I think we should look at Dorsey then possibly Mc D, even though he is not a great need. These players would have the greatest potential and lower risk. Ellis might also fit into this category.
I believe Kiffin and Al might really be looking at LB Keith Rivers. Although he is not rated in the top five by most, don't think for a second that it would stop Al from picking him at #4. Al also loves USC players. The Raiders will probably surprise us with the pick and do something nobody expects. raider draft history has been anything but predictable. Lets hope for the best.
#17
Posted by OakFoSho, April 8, 2008 11:42 PM
Pat,
Your argument would make sense if Run DMC was only going to be used as a RB. Unfortunately, for your argument, Run DMC will only need 10-12 carries a game, as he will be split out a lot, be put in motion, and returning kicks and punts.
Fargas and Bush can split the remaining 25-30 carries, as the Raiders should be even more run happy this season in an attempt to protect J Money. If Run DMC is picked then Rhodes will most likely be traded, and we all know that Jordan's days are numbered.
Also, Kelly's contract alone covers all the money invested in RB, and if you include the rest of the money on the D-Line you will see that there is no comparison when discussing the amount of money invested in the D-Line vs RB.
Again, your argument fails to take into account the versatility that Run DMC presents, as well as the gross disparity in the amount of money invested between RB and D-Line.
Thanks for the argument though as I always like to clarify my possitions......
The Raiders Biggest Need is TDs, thus....
Al's Mandate is McFadden!!
OakFoSho
#18
Posted by Raider Mike, April 8, 2008 11:48 PM
Al will also take into serious consideration as to who will sell the most seats. Apart from just simply winning a lot of games to sell seats, DMC would fit the bill. He would also get the most media attention and we all know Uncle Al loves that.
#19
Posted by OakFoSho, April 9, 2008 12:11 AM
Rolni,
I did not say that the Raiders would not draft a DE, rather I said that they would not draft one at #4. Read comment #9 more carefully please.
You go on to state.....
"D-Burgg is a force but aging and running out of contract, Richardson is a good playa against the run but nothing against the pass, Edwards was released by the Lions so we can’t wait for too much from him."
You make my point for me here. Burgess has two years left on his contract so thats all good. Richardson is best against the run, while Edwards is best against the pass, thus the perfect platoon scenario. Also, Al did not give Edwards guaranteed $$$$ just to sit on the bench.
Also, you, much like Pat whom I was responding too, fail to take into account Run DMC's versatility and only view him as a RB. Well if you read Kiff's recent interview he stated that he would split Run DMC out a ton and use him in an assortment of ways other than RB.
Also, Rhodes restructured his contract and is thus more valuable as trade bait if Run DMC were to be picked. Truth be told, when the Raiders take Run DMC, I expect Rhodes and Lamont to be gone. Echimondu (spelled incorrectly I'm sure) will be a great emergency back behind the likes of Fargas, Bush, and Run DMC.
LDizzle,
You state....
"Although he never seems to mention re-signing Fargas and restructuring Rhodes hmmm (scratching my chin)."
Actually I mention this all the time, so you need to read more carefully. Just in case, i rewrote my argument above so, again, get your facts straight.
Also, Run DMCs visit to the Raiders was not highly publicized as only the Sac Bee reported it prior to the day of the actual workout taking place. Again, get those facts straight buddy. I know its hard with that twisted head of yours.
I have said, and will continue to say, that I will admit if I am wrong, as this is the true measure of a man. LDizzle on the other hand, is incapable of admitting he is wrong and will most likely go back to that defeated hole he has recently returned from when the Raiders draft Run DMC!
The Raiders Biggest Need is TDs, thus.....
Al's mandate is McFadden!!
OakFoSho
#20
Posted by Anthony, April 9, 2008 12:22 AM
Golston is hype, for many of the reasons stated already. The one that concerns me is the direct comparison between Chris Long and Vernon Golston: Long will chase a play all over the field and play until the whistle blows; Golston doesn't pursue "unnecessarily." Long outruns his teammates to the ball to try and make a play, Golston is content to watch them run past him. His effort simply isn't there, and, to put it bluntly, the Raiders need more guys like Greg Biekert was -- guys that work their asses off on every single play -- and fewer like Chester McGlockton -- more talented, but infinitely lazier.
#21
Posted by Patrick Patterson, April 9, 2008 1:00 AM
You are right on there, Anthony.
***guys that work their asses off on every single play***
We have a winner.
#22
Posted by Apachejock, April 9, 2008 4:50 AM
I think the question is "Real Deal or Hype?" Gholston is definitely the Real Deal. Paired with a healthy Burgess they would bring back the Terror that was once the Silver and Black D. Whether we would take him at #4 is another question - but it sure would be nice to have our own Merriman or J. Taylor that other teams would have to game-plan for. I only hope if we don't get him that we don't have to face him very often. Everybody talks up Jake Long, and he is the only guy to get sacks over Long - hmmmmm.
#23
Posted by Rolni, April 9, 2008 6:11 AM
OakFoSho,
You are funny man...you say that after the signing of Kalimba we won't draft a DE and the other side we resign Fargas and we have 4 other RB on our roster you would choose a RB...lets see it we have 3 DE right now:D-Burgg is a force but ageing and running out of contract, Richardson is a good playa against the run but nothing against the pass, Edwards was released by the Lions so we can't wait for too much from him...We have a 1000yard rusher(Fargas) a proven veteran (Rhodes) and an unproven young guy with lot's of potentian (Bush)...
DMC is not needed...even if he would be an Adrian Peterson we wouldn't need him,but he is a lot worse than AP!!He is like Reggie Bush...can run mainly on the sides not between tackles...in the NFL he will be hunted down!!And he is even worse than R.Bush cause he had much more fumbles than R.B.!!McFadden fumbled the ball in college in every 20th time he touched it!!!
He had 12 fumbles besides his 16 td...what will he do in the NFL man???think about it!!!
#24
Posted by josh, April 9, 2008 6:44 AM
Wow, I was not aware of those fumble statistics. That's a lot of drops over the year.
#25
Posted by Eflo, April 9, 2008 7:16 AM
Anthony.....I coundn't have said it better.
Eflo-Bleeder of SIlver & Black
#26
Posted by LDizzle, April 9, 2008 11:11 AM
Rolni:
Exactly what I have been saying about the argument that OakFo makes that he would like us to think is airtight. Every move this team makes he says is further proof of AD's plan to draft McFadden. Although he never seems to mention re-signing Fargas and restructuring Rhodes hmmm (scratching my chin). The point is that all of the moves that Al has made signal NOTHING as far as what he will draft. He signed Kelly to a huge contract but Sands has been dissapointing and Joseph was not brought in to be the savior for our lack of run stopping. Which means that we could still use a NT. Kalimba Edwards was the lowly Lions trash and the jury is still out on the 5th rounder Richardson. That means that DE is still a need. Kwame Harris was a bust and could still not win the starting LT spot. So LT is still a possibility as well. Nothing has been done at SLB so that is obviously a need. If we get some mid round picks in trades we would very likely grab a receiver in case Walker goes down with injury or Drew Carter doesn't pan out. We are probably looking at taking a late round flier at QB (Dennis Dixon?). So it would seem the only area everyone agrees we are set on is RB (and DB of course). So how exactly does the Raiders offseason moves signal that Dmac is in the cards? Only as BAIT. Which is why he visited yesterday HIGHLY publicised mind you. As if to say "Hey look everyone. We want Dmac so you better trade up into our spot if you want him". Strategy that ChoakFoShomer is not educated enough to understand.
#27
Posted by Twocents, April 9, 2008 1:10 PM
One player is not going to transform the offense into a powerhouse. I'd settle for some Tom Cable magic and a healthy Walker and Bush. If Dallas will bite, spend those picks on defense. With a little luck, we might be quite respectable.
#28
Posted by inonewordraider, April 9, 2008 4:21 PM
We are close to being a shut down D w/ young talented lb's, young talented safeties, and talented young corners who are good as any in the league. Our DE spot will be solid when Kelly becomes healthy. We are a Dorsey/Ellis away from being a great D for years to come. If we can draft a good OT or 2 w/ Jordan, Washington and or Rout as trade bait (which we will) we will have a solid running game w/ the Fargas/Bush/Rhodes trio (solid last year, potentially great this year w/ Bush) and a line to protect JRussell. Then all we would be is a passing game short of not just being respectable, but of having all the tools necessary to win it all. Then the only real barrier from getting to that level would be Javon's production and Russells progression. I love Mcfadden but drafting him still leaves a lot of holes in our team.
#29
Posted by Juice, April 9, 2008 4:42 PM
I'm not quite sold on Gholston being all hype, but there is no question in my mind that when compared to Chris Long, Darren McFadden, Glenn Dorsey and Sedrick Ellis that he is the by far the riskiest pick at number four overall. Most "experts" project him as an explosive 3/4 rush linebacker in the mold of Shawne Merriman or DeMarcus Ware. Problem with that is that even though Rob Ryan has plenty of experience coaching a 3/4 defense, the Raiders do not run a 3/4 defense. True he's a bit small to be an every down defensive end in a 4/3, but please don't use the Dwight Freeney exception because I don't see much of a comparison between the two. While Freeney is undersized, he plays with outstanding leverage and never takes a play off. Gholston on the other hand has done seemed to be prone to putting forth "inconsistent effort". Now is that because he's possibly boered, or is it something deeper? At number four, you need to take an every down player in my book, not just someone to rush the passer on third down. As stated in previous posts, Kalimba Edwards was added and he's pretty much a pass rush specialist anyway, akin to what Chris Clemons brought to the defense last year. My biggest issue with Gholston is that he seems to rely on his freakish physical talent too much. He doesn't seem to be much of a technician. Too many times I saw him simply run around offensive tackles to make the play. Everybody here knows that it's not that easy in the NFL. He does come from an NFL breeding pen in the form of Ohio State, who year in and year out just churns out quality defensive personnel so maybe we could give him the benefit of the doubt. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think Gholston should be labled as hype, but he's not an ideal fit for the Raiders' system. When the time comes for the Raiders to make thier first round pick I really believe that Vernon Gholston should be the last option when in regard to the other aformentioned players on the board.
#30
Posted by Juice, April 9, 2008 4:48 PM
ESPN reported that the Dolphins are currently negotiating a contract with Jake Long. If that is indeed true, and the dominos fall in place, Oakland should end up with Chris Long, Darren McFadden, or Sedrick Ellis. Any one of those three should make an instant impact to the franchise and really carry Oakland out of the gutter of the NFL and into a Silver & Black Renaissance. Wouldn't that be nice?
#31
Posted by jeff knows, April 9, 2008 5:19 PM
When are the Raiders getting out of Chokeland? 2011? Three seasons to go, pitiful so called return to greatness. Just die baby.
#33
Posted by Mr.Murder, April 10, 2008 2:21 AM
Why the hell would you draft Gholston when Bruce Davis' son is sitting at RD 6 from UCLA and is a better pass rusher?
#34
Posted by Rolni, April 10, 2008 11:12 PM
OakFoSho,
i won't countinue to argue with you, cause it's easy to see that you can't deal with others opinion...you telling the same bullshit for weeks now...so why are you writing on this page???you are not interested in others view ,you just wanna show your false toughts over and over!!Man realize that we don't wanna see your worthless comments after every article...write them into a book at home rather than here!!!
#35
Posted by OakFoSho, April 11, 2008 3:22 PM
Rolni,
I was responding directly to your criticisms which were based on something I did not say. I asked you to re-readmy comment but obviously you did not or you would have realized you mistake. I am sorry that you don;t appreciate a good debate, and i hope you will try a little harder in the future, rather than just giving up and retreating into self deprecating personal attacks.
Al's Mandate is McFadden!!
OakFoSho
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