If no Sundin, then what? Montreal’s other options
Here at Les Glorieux, we thrive on the hypothetical. When things happen, I can comment on them. However, when nothing is happening? That just means I can talk about whatever I want. After taking “heat” for saying the Canadiens were front runners for getting Mats Sundin (I still do), I’m going to take a look at what happens if Sundin decides to retire or play elsewhere.
The good news? The Canadiens would still be a good team.
Plan B: Patrick Marleau
It has been widely reported that Montreal’s Plan B if Sundin decides not to come to the Habs is San Jose Sharks captain Patrick Marleau. These rumours have been circulated almost as much as the Alex Tanguay ones the last few years, and guess what? Tanguay is now a Montreal Canadien. If Sundin doesn’t sign, I believe that Bob Gainey will go after Patrick Marleau, and while it will cost something in a trade more than Sundin as a free agent, a guy like Marleau can make this team better.
San Jose is not rebuilding, so they will be looking for players that can help them right away. The obvious names are the ones that were thrown around the Marian Hossa and Mats Sundin trade rumours at the Trade Deadline with one caveat - Marleau is not a rental player. So, you’re probably looking at a trade for Marleau costing you Chris Higgins, Maxim Lapierre and maybe even Ryan O’Byrne or another defence prospect.
Good trade? Perhaps. I think it helps both teams but maybe I’m overvaluing Higgins, Lapierre and O’Byrne. Let’s look at what the Canadiens’ lineup would look like if this trade happened.
Andrei Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev
Tanguay-Marleau-Sergei Kostitsyn
Latendresse-Koivu-Kostopoulos
Begin-Chipchura-Laraque
Markov-Komisarek
Hamrlik-Gorges
Bouillon-Dandenault/Belle/Valatenko/Carle/etc…
Unless you’re blind, you see that this trade makes that 3rd line (which with Sundin would be Higgins-Koivu-Latendresse) is much worse. However, if Montreal can find their center, there are still some scoring wingers still available. Brendan Shanahan is one who is still available for example. It also could open a spot for prospect Max Pacioretty who is making a lot of noise at the team’s development camp.
So this probably isn’t the best case scenario for the Canadiens.
Plan C: UFA Right Winger of choice
Despite it being mid-July, there are still some good free agents available that would fit in with Montreal’s needs. Just a quick look at free agent lists show Teemu Selanne, Brendan Shanahan and Ladislav Nagy still unsigned unrestricted free agents. Guess what? They would also be top-9 forwards on any NHL team, right where Montreal has an opening.
Selanne and Shanahan have been rumoured to come to Montreal before, and relatively often. Nagy signed with Los Angeles for one year and battled through injuries and only played 38 games last year, with 9 goals and 17 assists. Nagy is much younger than the other two at only 29 years old.
So, let’s call these players ‘Plan C’ in this edition of Montreal’s lineup:
Andrei Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev
Tanguay-Koivu-Plan C
Latendresse-Higgins-Sergei Kostitsyn
Laraque-Lapierre-Kostopoulos
That doesn’t look too bad, does it?
Plan D: Do Nothing
Stand Pat. Dance with the one you brought.
AK-Plekanec-Kovalev
Tanguay-Koivu-Sergei Kostitsyn
Higgins-Chipchura-Latendresse
Laraque-Lapierre-Kostopoulos
(others: Gregory Stewart, Matt D’Agostini, Steve Begin, Mathieu Dandenault, etc…)
So while the Canadiens are waiting for Mats Sundin, if it doesn’t work out, it’s not like they don’t have other options.
Either way, it leaves us with plenty to talk about until Mats makes his decision.
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on Saturday, July 12th, 2008 at 3:08 pm and is filed under Ideas for Bob, Sundin, Ladislav Nagy, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Brendan Shanahan, Higgins, Teemu Selanne.
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21 Responses to “If no Sundin, then what? Montreal’s other options”
July 12th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
I never understood the fascination with Sundin. It’s not like he is the Messiah or anything. He never won much on some good teams in Quebec while he was there, and nothing to speak of on some fairly decent Leaf teams over the year. Now that he is past his prime and not even sure he wants to play any longer, he is suddenly “the magical missing ingredient”? I’m really skeptical. The most talented players can drop off the end of the earth in their late 30s. Most do with a great golden parachute.
Maybe they’ll try to pry Antoine Vermette out of Ottawa if things go badly in their contract talks. I can’t see too many players out there that they could add without depleting their current roster in an equal amount. Probably Gainey would just sit on the extra cash in case Sundin pulls a Forsberg/Neidermyer and gets up off the couch sometime in late December. There is bound to be some high priced talent available at the trade deadline as well. If the Habs are in the hunt he can invest the extra cash at that time.
July 13th, 2008 at 1:22 am
I am a huge Sundin fan. He’s 6′5, 231, a point-per-game player the last two years despite playing on poor teams. He was a +17 last year with the Leafs.
If you could picture one player that this Montreal team is missing, you would get a big scoring centre. Mats Sundin is all of those things.
He may be past his prime, but put up 78 points last year, despite being injured. That’s almost as good as any player we had last year. If we add Sundin, teams would have 3 very good centres to defend. They probably would choose Plekanec and Sundin leaving Saku to put up big numbers on a 3rd line (I’d call it 1c).
There is no indication Sundin would not put up those numbers again. And, Sundin will not wait until December. He refused to be traded last year saying he didn’t want to be a rental player. He’ll decide by August.
I honestly think Sundin will make this team an outstanding team, however, if we don’t add him, all is not lost. I don’t see any player in the NHL, nevermind who’s actually a free agent that fits into this team as well as Mats.
You mention Antoine Vermette, but Ottawa will not trade him unless they get themselves a goaltender, and I don’t see us helping out Ottawa and vice versa.
Why would you want to wait for the Trade Deadline, when the best piece of the puzzle is available for nothing and last year we would have traded Higgins, a 1st, 2nd and 3rd for him.
I understand some skepticism, and I’m not saying that Sundin would guarantee the Cup by any stretch, but he would most definitely make this team as deep at forward than any other team in the league.
Just for kicks, this is how I see our lineup with Mats:
Andrei-Plekanec-Kovalev
Tanguay-Sundin-Sergei
Higgins-Koivu-Latendresse
Laraque-Lapierre-Kostopoulos
You may be skeptical at the Higgins-Koivu-Latendresse line, but remember, that was our first line for most of last year…
It’s hard to argue against your points because they are all valid concerns. However, I feel that Sundin still has a lot left, especially when you consider that if he chooses to come here, it will be because he wants the Cup and a little extra motivation never hurt anybody. (I’m not saying he didn’t want it in Toronto, but this would be his last great chance).
July 13th, 2008 at 5:26 am
i like our first line but i’m not in favor of Tanguay and Koivu playing together, they’re both passers, two playmakers makes for too many plays and not enough goals. I like Tanguay with Sergei on the other wing and Chipchurra at center. Koivu with latendresse and Higgins would be a perfect third line.
Our forth line is gonna be awseome no matter how you draw it up. George can score 10-15 goals, play with anyone and hammer everything that moves. I love the Laraque signing so much it hurts. I think Begin, despite his passion has got to be on his way out as well as Dandenault. I can’t seem to fit him in anywhere except the press box. I really want to see O’byrne get signed long term but i sense a trade coming involving Ryan and possibly one of our goalies(not Price or Halak) probably Denis, maybe to LA for Nagy. Desharnais wil be our Marty St-louism the kid has mad skill and he’s tough for his minor stature.
Pacioretty, i hope, is making every Habs fan grind thier teeth in anticipation because he has top line power forward potential and then some, possibly Gainey’s best move since the Price draft. Good stuff Jared. Go habs.
July 13th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
why on earth would you put higgins a centre on plan C?!?!?
July 13th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Jeff: Yeah, I suppose Tanguay and Koivu are similar, but put them with a scorer, and they can both feed him, kind of like the Boston line of Juneau, Oates and Neely.
Nagy is a free agent, so we won’t need to trade for him. Unless he signed somewhere, and I didn’t notice. I don’t think we’ll trade Denis or Halak (and obviously Price) because we just signed both of them. Denis is a perfect 3rd goaltender for us. He doesn’t mind being in Hamilton, and if anything happens to Price or Halak, he is a capable go-to guy.
Jordan: There are not many options if Montreal wants to go for a winger as opposed to a centre (like in Plan C). Higgins is a natural centre (he played C while Koivu was out in the playoffs). You could also put Sergei Kostitsyn at C, or even Tanguay. I suppose even Nagy could play C if they went that way.
Chipchura is an option, but I think the Canadiens would rather 3 scoring lines and 1 checking line. That’s why I put Higgins at centre. And Chipchura might not even make the team. It would depend on his training camp.
July 13th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Historically, adding an aging superstar has never been the answer to any teams problems. How many times have we seen it happen with the likes of Jagr, Gretzky, Tkachuk, Shanahan, Mogilny, Turgeon, etc., etc., etc. ? One of the only cases I can think of where it worked out positively was with Raymond Bourque in Colorado, but I don’t know that Bourque was necessary there. I think they probably would have won with or without him.
July 13th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Rob, remember Teemu going back to Anaheim, Hull going to Detroit, Carolina Huricanes borrowing Doug Weight from St louis, Messier in New York, anyway, regardless, Jared i had a brain freeze with the Nagy deal, yes they could get him for nothing but i still feel that O’byrne is going to be traded somewhere, i would hate to see it because he’s big, quick for his size and hits quite well, his downside is his first passing, he’s more of dump it down the boards type player but the coaching staff in Montreal can work on that with him. I actually want Dandenault gone however, Begin, i can take or leave, i love his heart but we all remeber his bone headed penalty that caused a five on three against Toronto to end our 07 palyoff hopes and of course the charging penalty he took in game four against Philly after we had scored two goals in under two minutes to get back in the game. The goal Philly scored while his dumb ass was sitting in the box lost the game and the series for us, putting us down 3-1 instead of going home at 2-2. Habs fans never forget.
I agree Denis was acquired as a back up plan, Gainey learned from his mistake last year which is why i have so much faith in him, he’s always evolving, but he’s also wily and having that much goaltending depth means a trade is coming with one of them. Trading the Kelly cup MVP and future second punch to Price, Cedic Desjardins is just not an option so Denis seems feasable to me. We need one more top line player and the field is getting thin, so many players are going to Europe to play, i read yesterday Stumpel went, Emery, etc.. Gainey needs to act quick and i know he will.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
rob. to your first comment, I agree ten fold, Gainey just might do that, save the cash either for Sundin in december or a gut check guy like Vermette who in my opinion would be an excellent fit, he has skill and grit and would love to play for the Habs, i watched an interview years ago with him on RDS and his eyes sparked when they mentioned him playing in Montreal. Sundin is only a rental, one maaaybe two years, just for a cup run then he’d be retiring. What Mats has to ask himself is does he want to retire a Montreal Canadien after years of horror in Toronto that he endured almost willingly.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
oh and Jared, your Tanguay, Sundin and Sergei line made me jump for joy…that would be sick.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Habs didn’t lose the playoff round to Philly because of lack of scoring, they lost it because Price unravelled and Gainey gave Huet away at the trade deadline. I think Montreal was the highest scoring team in the league last season, plus they added Alex Tanguay. I like what Gainey has done so far this season, adding some size and tinkering with the chemistry.
If they add Sundin, it just moves Koivu or Plekanec down a notch. Saku is the captain and has a lot of pride. Plekanec is a developing scoring star who will be a free agent next year. There could be some risks involved as well as benefits. Players get paid according to their scoring stats for the most part. I don’t think that either Koivu or Plekanec will be happy with a reduced role.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
good point. rob.
July 13th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
whoa, okay, i just read that Gainey traded my favorite prospect of all Corey Locke to minnesota for the massive defenceman Shawn Belle. I am a bit baffled here, Jared talk to me. explain this one. Where does that put O’byrne, Valentenko, etc.. now. in Bob i trust. but i really liked Locke’s offensive prowess, two rears running lead Hamilton in points. two yers running lead the OHL in points. what’s up?
July 13th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Alright. Man, seeing the comments makes me jump for joy. Is it September, yet?
I agree that there are risks involved with getting a guy like Sundin. But, I am very sure that Gainey has spoken to Saku and got his input on Mats joining the team. Saku is at a point where getting Sundin and having less focus on him can actually improve his stats, and Sundin is a veteran. He’ll know his role when he gets here if he chooses to come here.
We’re getting to a point where next July, Saku might have to take a pay cut if he wants to keep this core together. Same thing for Kovalev. We have some key RFA’s next year. This year will be key in the club’s future.
I agree that acquiring a superstar has not worked in a lot of cases. However, those guys were asked to lead the team they came to. Montreal isn’t looking for someone to take them from worst to first in Sundin. He is somebody who is expected to help this team over the hump. I am convinced he can do that and that the egos can all co-exist.
Rob - I’ll add one more thing to your list of why we lost to Philadelphia: Inexperience. Not only will that be improved this year naturally (everyone else is a year older plus Tanguay/Laraque), but adding a scoring veteran will also improve that.
I still think that this team needs to add a top-6/9 forward. Maybe not Sundin, but someone who can score and is responsible defensively. We already have 4-5 guys on the fourth line rotating, but we need someone who can step up to that third line and balance the scoring a little bit more.
Jeff: As for the Locke trade, Locke was not going to be re-signed by the Canadiens as an RFA anyway (he was getting offers from the Swiss league and I think he knew he was low on the depth chart in Montreal), and Belle adds depth to defence. He may get a shot at the big club, but last year the Canadiens were relatively healthy throughout the year. If the injury bug hits this year, Gainey wants to be prepared. We don’t have the versatility of a Streit this year, so we needed to add some extra insurance.
O’Byrne I think will be a big chip in a trade for a top-6/9 forward if we don’t get Sundin. He will still play regularly as a top 6 guy if we don’t trade him.
Another thing is what happens to a lot of these fringe guys (Carle, Belle, Chipchura, Stewart, D’Agostini, etc..) will depend what they do in training camp. Same for guys like Dandenault and Begin. I think even guys like O’Byrne and Latendresse will need to have good camps. Remember when Lapierre was sent down at the beginning of the year last year. It’s going to be a very, very good competition.
Jeff- You raised a really good point. Begin has not been the same kind of player since the Toronto game two years ago. He has been taking silly penalties and has lost a bit of his edge.
Thanks again for the comments, guys. We may not see eye-to-eye on everything, but I love how informed the discussion gets. It’s great. Unlike the horrible trouble we ran into in the playoffs with the spammers.
July 13th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
you’re welcome and this is still the best forum for hockey talk anywhere, so keep it man.
July 13th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
I don’t think Sundin will come to Montreal, actually. Gainey had two weeks or so to convince him prior to the onset of free agency, and I can’t see that anything has changed much since then. Unless, as I mentioned, he wants to do a half season. Brendan Shanahan has been rumored to be interested in coming to Montreal, I don’t see a huge difference between he and Sundin, if it’s just a one year proposition. I imagine he would be a lot cheaper as well.
I think that O’Byrne could be trade bait as well. It’s taking a long time to get a contract done, and the team showed absolutely no faith in him during the playoffs last season. The guy is 24, so he isn’t going to get a lot better. I strongly disagree about Carle and D’Agostini being “fringe” guys. Mathieu is my pick to crack the lineup this season. He had a pretty strong rookie year in the AHL for a barely 20 year old. D’Ago had an even better first year in the AHL last year when he was even younger. His first two AHL seasons are on par with Chris Higgins and Tomas Plekanec, and much better than Andrei Kostitsyn.
July 14th, 2008 at 3:08 am
Rob- We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Sundin. I still think we’re the front runners, personally. I think he’s genuinely not sure if he wants to play at all in the NHL. I think he knows we’re his best fit. Again, all speculation on my part.
Also I call Carle and D’Agostini “fringe” guys because they are guys that aren’t making it on any lineup people are putting out there. A good or bad camp will make or break they chances of making the team. That’s really what I meant by that.
I also am unsure about O’Byrne. The whole rookie night thing aside, I think Carbonneau had more confidence in Brisebois in the playoffs than O’Byrne. Brisebois did play very well throughout the playoffs, and I think he didn’t necessarily want to tinker with a bad thing.
It may have left a bad taste in his mouth, though.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
it must have left a bad taste in Carbo’s mouth it certainly left a bad taste in mine. I like some aspects of Ryan’s game but he seems to not quite fit in. We need to replace his size if he does leave beacuse we were pushed around by Philly’s forecheck too much. Komi will be a year better, Gorges i really like, Hammer etc.. but maybe Belle or Carle can step in for some size. I think Belle has to be NHL ready he was drafted in 03, first round, me might just see him along side Hamrlik.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Hey, has anyone considered Mike Glumac or Max Pacioretty as possible alternatives? They are out there and no one brings their names up…..
July 17th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Rob–Alternatives to what? I’m assuming you mean as fourth line players? Pacioretty is a future star for the Habs who Gainey just signed to a three contract but i doubt he’ll even play for Hamilton next year, it seems he wants to finish his senior year at Michigan. Glumac is a Bulldog at best, a career minor leaguer who may get a game or two with the Habs but i doubt it. O’byrne was also just signed to a three year contract. Pacioretty has been lighting up the development camp which is why Gainey signed him and a year from now we’ll see him as our power forward of the future.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
oops…Rob—another brain fart by me. Pacioretty can’t play for michigan anymore. I read just now that Gainey and Max feel that he is ready to make the leap into the Habs lineup…or if not then a year or half year in Hamilton. So yes, Pacioretty is a real potential as an alternative forward in our lineup next season. sorry for the momentary lack of hockey sense.
July 18th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Actually I was being facetious. I don’t expect much from Pacioretty for a couple of years at least, and Glumac is purely a depth signing to serve as a good role model for the kids in Hamilton. I was just poking some fun because they just signed the two.
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