January 11, 2009
The Sunday Drive with a possible Tribe trade, Carl Pavano and Joe Loudmouth
It's quite possible that the Indians and Red Sox will do a whole lot of talking over the next month with regards to needs that both clubs may have. The Red Sox are looking for a starting catcher, while the Indians may still be hunting for a starting pitcher even with the recent signing of Pavano. Wouldn't you know that both seem to have just the surplus that the other needs. Thanks to both teams addressing key offseason wants, a deal between the two is certainly a possibility.
The Cleveland Indians have seemingly checked off all of their needs this offseason with the Wood and Pavano signings, and the Smith and Valbueno trade. The one question-mark remains the starting rotation, with Carl Pavano hardly being the lock-sure answer since he hasn't pitched well since 2004. Combine that with Anthony Reyes' seemingly 50/50 potential to either be solid or blow up, and you have an organization that might still be searching for starters.
It's quite possible that Theo Epstein would shake away either Buchholz or Justin Masterson for the services of Tribe catcher (and former Red Sox farmhand) Kelly Shoppach. There's a lot of speculation that the Red Sox are focusing their attention on Texas and Jarrod Saltalamachhia or Taylor Teagarden. I don't buy that either is the answer to the Red Sox in 2009.
The Red Sox are heading into the season with some major offensive questions. Will David Ortiz rebound into an MVP candidate, or will he continue to decline with age? Can Mike Lowell come back and hit like in 2007, or will injuries and age continue his decline as well? The Red Sox need offense that they can be sure of, and with catcher Jason Varitek off in the land of the free, it's likely the Sox would turn to a catcher who is assured of hitting the ball, and not a prospect like Saltalamachhia or Teagarden.
Shoppach may be the best option available to the Red Sox, and acquiring a guy like Buchholtz (last year's top Sox prospect) and/or Justin Masterson (last year's fourth top Sox prospect) would make sense for a club like the Indians. It would give the Indians one more option for their question-mark starting staff, as well as add a player that could be counted on in the future. It would seemingly be the perfect trade at this stage of the game for a team like the Indians.
Of course, the Indians have the same type of issues that the Red Sox do as far as their offense goes. Both Travis Hafner and Victor Martinez are question marks offensively heading into this season based on their injury issues of last season, and their age. Sure, the Indians finished sixth in the league in runs scored last year, but I think it's safe to say that the Sox probably have better batting depth than the Indians do.
So what is more important? Is the offensive insurance more important to the Indians as opposed to a cushion in their starting rotation? It's not an easy question to answer.
For those wondering about Buchholz and Masterson, here's a quick breakdown. Buchholtz was as automatic a prospect as you get for the Sox after he pitched a no-hitter in only his second start as a major leaguer. Granted he struggled last season, but it was the first time this youngster hasn't been spectacular in his career. He comes at you with a mid-90's fastball, a hard breaking curve and a slider, which are all plus pitches, and can throw in a change to keep hitters honest.
Justin Masterson is a giant at 6'6" and 250 pounds. Masterson rolls out a low-90's fastball with hard sinking action, a plus slider, a curve and a changeup. He also has a strange arm-angle which makes his pitches harder to figure out. I don't see his potential as being as high as Buchholz because his arm isn't nearly as lively, but he does seem to fit the mold as an Indians sinker pitcher. He throws a ton of ground balls. He also can throw out of the pen, as the Sox have used Masterson as a set-up guy, and he was extremely successful at it.
There are other teams in play here, including the Arizona Diamondbacks, who has the Red Sox' interest with catcher Miguel Montero. The Dodgers (Russell Martin) and the Angels (Mike Napoli) are also still in the picture. All three teams may need starting pitching as well. It might bode the Red Sox well to hold on to their starters as long as possible before deciding to deal, especially with health concerns following Penny, Smoltz and Beckett.
Yes, the Indians are likely done, but after we've had an offseason that has seen Mark Shapiro go on the attack, nothing would surprise me at this point.
Carl Pavano had a parting shot to the New York Yankees after signing a deal with the Cleveland Indians this past week, and I would say it doesn't really come as any surprise.
"When you're down, you expect your organization to pick you up, not kick you when you're down. I've had to pick myself up quite a few times the last four years."Now granted, I hate the Yankees as much as anyone, but is Pavano for real? Seriously, the guy signs a four-year, $40 million dollar contract and can't quite figure out why the Yankees were ticked off about his lack of production? No offense to Pavano, but you really have to give me a break.
From what I remembered, Pavano was considered a joke in the Yankees clubhouse because of the perceived lack of commitment to make it back into the rotation. This was exacerbated in 2006 when Pavano missed a bunch of time early in the year with a bruised ass, then failed to make it back in August when he broke ribs in a car accident and didn't tell the Yankees until the day the Yankees told him he would be making his next start. He had broken the ribs two-weeks prior.
Pavano was then forced to have Tommy John surgery mid-year in 2007. The Yankees, irritated that Pavano had done nothing for them since they acquired him, then asked him to accept a minor league deal, which he turned down (he should have). However, he stayed on the roster all year long and collected a playoff paycheck which likely irritated his teammates.
I have nothing against Pavano at all, but I do have to wonder why he didn't just keep his mouth shut. After his four years in New York, he could have at least learned that.
When talking about the Cleveland Indians and the economy to the Boston Globe, Peter Gammons said,
"In a state like Ohio . . . the economics are really bad. The Indians may have had the best offseason of anyone [signing reliever Kerry Wood, among others], and they can't sell tickets."I'm not surprised that the esteemed Peter Gammons thinks the Indians may have made the best moves of the offseason. He may very well be right. At the same time, what I've heard is that the Indians are nearly neck-and-neck with last year's numbers. That's not an unimpressive feat considering the recession combined with the 81-81 record. We'll see what the true numbers end up being. I do suspect Cleveland to take a hit based on the economy, but it may not be as bad as initially thought.
Check out a new mvn site, Joe Loudmouth. Loudmouth is a regular here at Tribe Report, and checks off the Indians as one of his top teams. It should be an interesting take on the sports world...
Have a great weekend, and don't forget to check the rearviewmirror for all the Yankee fans hammering the hell out of Carl Pavano. In this case, I may agree with them.
I can't believe I just said that...
Discussion
7 Comments on "The Sunday Drive with a possible Tribe trade, Carl Pavano and Joe Loudmouth"
#1
Posted by Craig P, January 11, 2009 4:59 PM
The Dodgers are not trading Russell Martin. They've said repeatedly that he's not available. So I would not consider them "still in the picture." They do need another SP, true.
#2
Posted by Rlaninthesun, January 11, 2009 8:03 PM
I would be shocked if Shapiro deals Show Pack back to Boston - unless he can get a couple of high ceiling A or AA prospects to go along with either Masterson or Buchholz- which would mean Theo would gag up a five for one dating to the original CoCo move.
I do see Arizona - a suddenly very weak team with defections - dealing. They have holes everywhere and money problems.
I don't agree that the Sox are suspect offensively, which is why I hope they get stuck with Varitek or less. It's bad enough to see CC in New York. To see Show Pack bolster what was already a potent offense would really sting.
I also take a counter view on Pavano James. I like the fact he's got this NY grudge thing going on, and I suspect Shaprio does too. He's survived the crucible of Gotham's rath and wants to prove he wasn't the cad Mussina said he was. In fact I think he became a bit of a sacrifical lamb while Boston was out-playing and out-dealing the Skanks at their own game.
I look forward to him going into NY and throwing a shut out or two - although I doubt he'll be in the rotation come August.
#3
Posted by MassFan, January 11, 2009 8:04 PM
Boy Pavano sounds a lot like Blackjack McDowell and that does not bode well. I still hope we hang on to Shoppach but Masterson is a beast who can start, hold, or close.
#4
Posted by James Pete, January 11, 2009 9:16 PM
Craig--
The last time I believed a team or a GM when they said that anyone was unavailable was...well...never. If the Dodgers see a higher need for a starting pitcher come spring, they'll deal him...if the return is there.
RL--
I don't see Boston as a hole offensively either, but the Red Sox do, and that's all that counts. I do agree with you about Pavano's chip on his shoulder about New York. At the same time, I don't need to hear about a guy that made $40 million whining about having to pick himself up for rehabbing for most of the past four seasons. I don't know that we can say he's survived the wrath just yet. Hopefully he will, but we shall see.
My preference is to deal Shoppach. No, it's not because I think he's going to suck this year, but rather because we can improve areas of need with an area of strength, which we've done all offseason.
I'd prefer to wait until after spring training, or even into the season.
#5
Posted by gerry, January 11, 2009 9:56 PM
Nice article. Sox fan here, but have a soft spot for the Indians having worn the colors for years in Pony League . . . in Boston.
Good analysis of the catching issues with the Sox. After Boras/Tek turned down $11M arbitration and walked, most Sox fans hoped he would find a way to come back, but Boras is playing hard ball with a bowling ball . . . a Posada-type contract?
The hope is a Tek/Bard platoon. If not, IMO,the best option would be a Kelly/Bard platoon which would offer good D and bat. I think Bard will surprise everyone this year, coming back from injuries. He is due for a Shoppach type breakout. I am uneasy about Salty and TG as they are essentially prospects, and Montero, though a bit more advanced, has lower highside.
Having watched Buchholz, Masterson, Bowden, Bard, Hagadone develop, giving any of them up would be painful, and possibly detrimental long term. They are true talents. So is Kelly. But the Sox may need all of them to start in 2010-11. The Sox may wind up with Bard plus Kottaras/Brown rotating through. Not a bad idea. Kottaras and Brown have already caught most of the RP and SP between Pawtucket & Fenway. Bard is familiar with Penny, Saito and Smoltz. Both kids can catch Wake's and Zink's knucklers. Both have big bats.
Sorry for the rant. This is a complex issue, and no one agrees on anything about it, yet all know it will work out, because there are so many good choices. In the meantime, would love to have Kelly back behind the dish at Fenway.
#6
Posted by Chet Wheeler, January 12, 2009 11:12 AM
I've seen it repeatedly (again by Gammons) that Shoppach doesn't seem to be in Boston's plans right now. I think the whole paying double issue (Coco) is probably somewhere Theo doesn't want to go as long as there are other options. I'd also guess that Shapiro won't even deal Shoppach unless he's overwhelmed, or at the very least comes away with Buchholz, whom Epstein is telling everyone to forget asking about.
Looking at the Tribe's question marks with Hafner, etc., and Boston's brain trust not wanting to move Buchholz I'd put the odds of a deal happening around slim to none.
But you never know...
#7
Posted by Tom Evans, January 12, 2009 6:51 PM
Jim:
As much as I'd like to add another starting pitcher, I'm not too excited about trading Shoppach. To me, that requires both Pronk and Vic to be healthy this year, which I'm just not counting on. As soon as Pronk goes down again, you have to slide Garko to DH, Vic to first, and Kelly catching full-time.
Otherwise, you end up with Delucci at DH, which I never want to see ever again. EVER. In fact, it ranks up there with Sammy Hagar singing for Van Halen again.
I guess the decision boils down to which gamble you are most comfortable with: a) Vic and Pronk staying healthy, or b) finding 3 starters out of Pavano, Reyes, Laffey, Lewis, Huff, and Sowers.



















Leave a comment